[ELECTRON] separate political mailing list?

Mon Jan 30 21:15:44 UTC 2012

I agree completely Bob, I was reading this today:
http://globalguerrillas.typepad.com/globalguerrillas/2012/01/drone-diplomacy-comply-or-die.html?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+typepad%2FrzYD+%28Global+Guerrillas%29&utm_content=Google+Reader

Bloody amazing technology, absolutely terrifying politics.

Article below:

Drone Diplomacy: Comply or Die

Gunboat diplomacy was the essence of military power projection for
centuries.  Want to coerce a country?  Sail a aircraft carrier battle group
into their national waters.

However, carrier battlegroups are hideously expensive, increasingly
vulnerable to low cost attack, and less lethal than they appear (most of
the weapons systems are used for self-defense).

What are nation-states replacing them with?  Drones.   You can already see
it in action across the
world<http://www.nytimes.com/2012/01/30/world/middleeast/iraq-is-angered-by-us-drones-patrolling-its-skies.html?_r=1&pagewanted=all>
as
drone staging areas are replacing traditional military bases/entanglements.
 Further, drones already account for the vast majority of people killed by
US forces.

Of course, the reason for this is clear.  Drones are relatively cheap,
don't require many people to deploy/operate, don't put personnel directly
at risk, can be easily outsourced, can be micromanaged from Washington, and
are very effective at blowing things up.

The final benefit of Drone Diplomacy:  drones make it possible to apply
coercion at the individual or small group level in a way that a blunt
instrument like a carrier battle group can't.
What does this mean?

It allows truly scalable global coercion:  the automation of comply or die.

Call up the target on his/her personal cell (it could even be automated as
a robo-call to get real scalability -- wouldn't that suck, to get killed
completely through bot based automation).

Ask the person on the other end to do something or to stop doing something.

If they don't do what you ask, they die soon therafter due to drone strike
(unless they go into deep hiding and disconnect from the global system).

With drone costs plummeting, we could see this drop to something less than
<$1000 a strike in the next half dozen years (particularly if kamikazee
drones, like Switchblade, are used to reduce explosive payload
requirements).
What can we look forward to?

The mid term future of a national security apparatus in secular ($$)
decline?

Drones, drones, and more drones.  Shrink the headcount.  Cut training.  Put
manned weapons systems in life support mode.  Cut mx.

All the money is on cyber intel (to generate targets based on "signatures")
and drones to kill them.  When domestic unrest occurs in the US due to
economic decline, these systems will be ready for domestic application.

On 30 January 2012 21:04, Bob Hamilton <bob at citystrolls.com> wrote:

> "politics" just means how groups of people discuss things and come to
> agreements in how they will go about them. Not to be confused with
> "party politics" which means trying to push agendas down peoples throats.
>
> The thing about the hard sciences is it is a good way of thinking about
> all sorts of things because it is based on evidence and if you try to
> lie or bend results your peers will soon find out about it and expose
> them. Unlike the social sciences, where you can lie to your back teeth
> and make it up as you go along.
>
> It always strikes me as odd when having conversations with folk (not all
> but a lot) who have studied physics or science or that kind of area,
> folk who can articulate and express scientific ideas in a language even
> I can understand. Yet if you mention anything vaguely political as
> described above in the conversation, it is a if you have insulted their
> mother or something. Any kind of reasonable analysis is side stepped to
> a position of attitude. Usually culminating in. What has politics got to
> do with it?
>
> I would ask what has politics not to do with it. Why would we need to
> keep producing guns no matter how technologically advanced they are when
> we need plows. Is - I'm only a scientist nothing to do with me - A gun
> is only a tool, I'm not a politician, etc the answer?
>
> Scientific knowledge and technology is only information. How we shape
> that knowledge into intelligent and useful ideas I think is an important
> question today if we are to maintain any kind of decent future, from the
> evidence I am looking at anyway. There are a mass of political
> discussion that could be had around the appliance of science and
> technology. We are based in an Art institution, the arts once having a
> close relation to the sciences. Maybe that relationship wasn't very
> scientific but it was formed in an era of vision, of excitement of a
> better and improved world.
>
> OK you might not agree which is perfectly all right. But I'm sure the
> Electron is diverse enough to ask and broaden some of the questions and
> help to make connections around these ideas rather than putting them in
> boxes? Bob
>
>
>
>
>
> On 30/01/2012 15:41, Thomas Coles wrote:
>
>> I've always thought that this list was *mostly* about phreaking,
>> hacking, electrical engineering and other cool engineering-style
>> projects, but a big attraction for me is the non-commercial, off the
>> radar aspect, and fighting for the emancipatory power of learning.
>>
>> To deny that material inventions (especially those that make
>> communication easier) don't have a bearing, for good or ill, on the
>> social and political landscape would be a bit weird. As would to
>> refuse to discuss them
>>
>> I mean, if one of us invented a new machinegun style revolutionary
>> piece of engineering, I think we'd have discussions about whether
>> there are any moral implications to it. Same with SOPA/PIPA, which
>> goes to show what happens when people start legislating around
>> technological fact.
>>
>> Anyway, if you don't enjoy the politics, ignore it. I'm not to hot
>> on the Reprap but reading about it doesn't offend me! (And from what
>> I understand, there is a deeply political agenda/implication to
>> reprap! The concept fitting with semi-anarchistic politics
>> somewhat.)
>>
>> Best,
>>
>> Tom
>>
>> On 30 January 2012 15:11, Benjamin Dembroski<ben at dembroski.net>
>> wrote:
>>
>>  Hi all,
>>>
>>> Me again,
>>>
>>> I just re-read my post, and I think there is one thing that I
>>> should probably clarify:
>>>
>>> I'm not suggesting that the EC is *only* or *more* about the
>>> politically active any more than I'm it should *only* be for those
>>> purely interested in technology.  One type of activity isn't any
>>> more or less valid than the other.
>>>
>>> My point was that there is room for both and others, and I would
>>> hope that the disparate groups interact and educate each other a
>>> little bit :)  This includes disagreeing with what people post on
>>> this list from time to time. Dissenting opinion is always healthy
>>> as long as it's expressed with respect.
>>>
>>> And to keep the CCA happy (and because it's fun) sharing what we
>>> do with the public should be encouraged whenever possible.  That's
>>> why the open days are so important, IMHO.
>>>
>>> Cheers, Ben
>>>
>>> PS.  My offer to bring cookies to a open / social day still
>>> stands…
>>>
>>>
>>> On 30 Jan 2012, at 12:59, Ian Bitmap wrote:
>>>
>>>  Thanks for clearing that up Ben/Magnus, and apologies for airing
>>>> my frustrations; I'm perhaps in a minority with my disregard for
>>>> the
>>>>
>>> movement,
>>>
>>>> so will wish you all well with your efforts; 'Power to the
>>>> People' etc
>>>>
>>>> On 30 January 2012 12:18, Benjamin Dembroski<ben at dembroski.net>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>  Magnus is 100% correct regarding what the club was setup for
>>>>> in the
>>>>>
>>>> first
>>>
>>>> instance.
>>>>>
>>>>> Of course, things change and as has been said ad nauseam on
>>>>> this list before there will always be members who are more
>>>>> political than others.
>>>>>
>>>> As
>>>
>>>> long as there is some kind of technology or hacking based
>>>>> theme to the discussion, it is appropriate for this list.
>>>>>
>>>>> I think it's important for all the members to realise
>>>>> something about
>>>>>
>>>> how
>>>
>>>> the EC is able to exist at all.  At the moment, the CCA
>>>>> donates use of
>>>>>
>>>> the
>>>
>>>> space to the Electron Club.  It's common sense to think that
>>>>> there are plenty of other uses that the space could be used
>>>>> for, many of which
>>>>>
>>>> could
>>>
>>>> be to generate revenue for the CCA (which they are short of,
>>>>> like almost all arts institutions).  The only way that the CCA
>>>>> can justify the loss
>>>>>
>>>> of
>>>
>>>> revenue / use of the space is to demonstrate that there is
>>>>> another,
>>>>>
>>>> perhaps
>>>
>>>> greater, benefit to the CCA by having the EC sitting in there.
>>>>> This roughly translates to 'public outreach'.  In other words,
>>>>> it's easy to justify the EC when activities that are based in
>>>>> the Club positively
>>>>>
>>>> affect
>>>
>>>> the public that the CCA intends to serve.
>>>>>
>>>>> Like it or not, it's the 'political' groups like Document,
>>>>> RIB, and the like that engage in these activities the most
>>>>> often and therefore are viewed as the most 'valuable' by our
>>>>> landlords. Rather than being disparaging of 'Citizen Smith',
>>>>> you might want to thank him/her for supporting your ability to
>>>>> use the club space for whatever you'd like,
>>>>>
>>>> for
>>>
>>>> free (which you will always be welcome to do as long as the
>>>>> club
>>>>>
>>>> exists).
>>>
>>>>
>>>>> My apologies for the tone of this message, but the repeated
>>>>> talk of "The Electron Club is not political" is very much a
>>>>> matter of cutting your
>>>>>
>>>> nose
>>>
>>>> off to spite your face. The actual situation needed to be made
>>>>> very
>>>>>
>>>> clear.
>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Best, Ben D.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On 30 Jan 2012, at 11:39, Ian Bitmap wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>  why don't we just disregard the politics altogether? Just
>>>>>> because I'm interested in open source software does not
>>>>>> automatically mean I wish
>>>>>>
>>>>> to
>>>
>>>> save the rain forest, adopt a panda or indeed 'smash the
>>>>>> state'. The
>>>>>>
>>>>> recent
>>>>>
>>>>>> uprising(?) of the 99% seems to have the air of a 'Citizen
>>>>>> Smith'
>>>>>>
>>>>> remake,
>>>
>>>> albeit with facebook replacing soapboxes - so please, if
>>>>>> just for intellectual refuge, lets leave the politics to the
>>>>>>  armchair pundits
>>>>>>
>>>>> and
>>>
>>>> 1st year social studies students, and get back to what the
>>>>>> club was
>>>>>>
>>>>> setup
>>>
>>>> for.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On 29 January 2012 23:15, James
>>>>>> Beeley<james.beeley at ntlworld.**com <james.beeley at ntlworld.com>>
>>>>>>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>  I'd rather the political stuff went onto a separate list.
>>>>>>> I'm
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> following
>>>
>>>> the reprap discussion with great interest, but I really
>>>>>>> don't want to read about anarchism and the like.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Jim
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Sun, 2012-01-29 at 22:38 +0000, Benjamin Dembroski
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Hi all,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Lately, there's been a bunch of emails regarding the
>>>>>>>> reprap stuff.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> It
>>>
>>>> sounds like things are progressing, and sounds like a very
>>>>>>> interesting
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> and
>>>>>
>>>>>> worthwhile project.  However, The discussion is getting
>>>>>>> increasingly specialised.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Given the number of emails, and that they are really
>>>>>>>> only pertinent
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> to
>>>
>>>> a
>>>>>
>>>>>> subset of EC members, would it make sense to make a
>>>>>>> separate mailing
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> list
>>>>>
>>>>>> to keep the noise down on the general EC list?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Just a thought, Ben D.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
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>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
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