[ELECTRON] separate political mailing list?

Mon Jan 30 21:04:33 UTC 2012

"politics" just means how groups of people discuss things and come to
agreements in how they will go about them. Not to be confused with
"party politics" which means trying to push agendas down peoples throats.

The thing about the hard sciences is it is a good way of thinking about
all sorts of things because it is based on evidence and if you try to
lie or bend results your peers will soon find out about it and expose
them. Unlike the social sciences, where you can lie to your back teeth
and make it up as you go along.

It always strikes me as odd when having conversations with folk (not all
but a lot) who have studied physics or science or that kind of area,
folk who can articulate and express scientific ideas in a language even
I can understand. Yet if you mention anything vaguely political as
described above in the conversation, it is a if you have insulted their
mother or something. Any kind of reasonable analysis is side stepped to
a position of attitude. Usually culminating in. What has politics got to
do with it?

I would ask what has politics not to do with it. Why would we need to
keep producing guns no matter how technologically advanced they are when
we need plows. Is - I'm only a scientist nothing to do with me - A gun
is only a tool, I'm not a politician, etc the answer?

Scientific knowledge and technology is only information. How we shape
that knowledge into intelligent and useful ideas I think is an important
question today if we are to maintain any kind of decent future, from the
evidence I am looking at anyway. There are a mass of political
discussion that could be had around the appliance of science and
technology. We are based in an Art institution, the arts once having a
close relation to the sciences. Maybe that relationship wasn't very
scientific but it was formed in an era of vision, of excitement of a
better and improved world.

OK you might not agree which is perfectly all right. But I'm sure the
Electron is diverse enough to ask and broaden some of the questions and
help to make connections around these ideas rather than putting them in
boxes? Bob

On 30/01/2012 15:41, Thomas Coles wrote:
> I've always thought that this list was *mostly* about phreaking,
> hacking, electrical engineering and other cool engineering-style
> projects, but a big attraction for me is the non-commercial, off the
> radar aspect, and fighting for the emancipatory power of learning.
>
> To deny that material inventions (especially those that make
> communication easier) don't have a bearing, for good or ill, on the
> social and political landscape would be a bit weird. As would to
> refuse to discuss them
>
> I mean, if one of us invented a new machinegun style revolutionary
> piece of engineering, I think we'd have discussions about whether
> there are any moral implications to it. Same with SOPA/PIPA, which
> goes to show what happens when people start legislating around
> technological fact.
>
> Anyway, if you don't enjoy the politics, ignore it. I'm not to hot
> on the Reprap but reading about it doesn't offend me! (And from what
> I understand, there is a deeply political agenda/implication to
> reprap! The concept fitting with semi-anarchistic politics
> somewhat.)
>
> Best,
>
> Tom
>
> On 30 January 2012 15:11, Benjamin Dembroski<ben at dembroski.net>
> wrote:
>
>> Hi all,
>>
>> Me again,
>>
>> I just re-read my post, and I think there is one thing that I
>> should probably clarify:
>>
>> I'm not suggesting that the EC is *only* or *more* about the
>> politically active any more than I'm it should *only* be for those
>> purely interested in technology.  One type of activity isn't any
>> more or less valid than the other.
>>
>> My point was that there is room for both and others, and I would
>> hope that the disparate groups interact and educate each other a
>> little bit :)  This includes disagreeing with what people post on
>> this list from time to time. Dissenting opinion is always healthy
>> as long as it's expressed with respect.
>>
>> And to keep the CCA happy (and because it's fun) sharing what we
>> do with the public should be encouraged whenever possible.  That's
>> why the open days are so important, IMHO.
>>
>> Cheers, Ben
>>
>> PS.  My offer to bring cookies to a open / social day still
>> stands…
>>
>>
>> On 30 Jan 2012, at 12:59, Ian Bitmap wrote:
>>
>>> Thanks for clearing that up Ben/Magnus, and apologies for airing
>>> my frustrations; I'm perhaps in a minority with my disregard for
>>> the
>> movement,
>>> so will wish you all well with your efforts; 'Power to the
>>> People' etc
>>>
>>> On 30 January 2012 12:18, Benjamin Dembroski<ben at dembroski.net>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Magnus is 100% correct regarding what the club was setup for
>>>> in the
>> first
>>>> instance.
>>>>
>>>> Of course, things change and as has been said ad nauseam on
>>>> this list before there will always be members who are more
>>>> political than others.
>> As
>>>> long as there is some kind of technology or hacking based
>>>> theme to the discussion, it is appropriate for this list.
>>>>
>>>> I think it's important for all the members to realise
>>>> something about
>> how
>>>> the EC is able to exist at all.  At the moment, the CCA
>>>> donates use of
>> the
>>>> space to the Electron Club.  It's common sense to think that
>>>> there are plenty of other uses that the space could be used
>>>> for, many of which
>> could
>>>> be to generate revenue for the CCA (which they are short of,
>>>> like almost all arts institutions).  The only way that the CCA
>>>> can justify the loss
>> of
>>>> revenue / use of the space is to demonstrate that there is
>>>> another,
>> perhaps
>>>> greater, benefit to the CCA by having the EC sitting in there.
>>>> This roughly translates to 'public outreach'.  In other words,
>>>> it's easy to justify the EC when activities that are based in
>>>> the Club positively
>> affect
>>>> the public that the CCA intends to serve.
>>>>
>>>> Like it or not, it's the 'political' groups like Document,
>>>> RIB, and the like that engage in these activities the most
>>>> often and therefore are viewed as the most 'valuable' by our
>>>> landlords. Rather than being disparaging of 'Citizen Smith',
>>>> you might want to thank him/her for supporting your ability to
>>>> use the club space for whatever you'd like,
>> for
>>>> free (which you will always be welcome to do as long as the
>>>> club
>> exists).
>>>>
>>>> My apologies for the tone of this message, but the repeated
>>>> talk of "The Electron Club is not political" is very much a
>>>> matter of cutting your
>> nose
>>>> off to spite your face. The actual situation needed to be made
>>>> very
>> clear.
>>>>
>>>> Best, Ben D.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 30 Jan 2012, at 11:39, Ian Bitmap wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> why don't we just disregard the politics altogether? Just
>>>>> because I'm interested in open source software does not
>>>>> automatically mean I wish
>> to
>>>>> save the rain forest, adopt a panda or indeed 'smash the
>>>>> state'. The
>>>> recent
>>>>> uprising(?) of the 99% seems to have the air of a 'Citizen
>>>>> Smith'
>> remake,
>>>>> albeit with facebook replacing soapboxes - so please, if
>>>>> just for intellectual refuge, lets leave the politics to the
>>>>>  armchair pundits
>> and
>>>>> 1st year social studies students, and get back to what the
>>>>> club was
>> setup
>>>>> for.
>>>>>
>>>>> On 29 January 2012 23:15, James
>>>>> Beeley<james.beeley at ntlworld.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> I'd rather the political stuff went onto a separate list.
>>>>>> I'm
>> following
>>>>>> the reprap discussion with great interest, but I really
>>>>>> don't want to read about anarchism and the like.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Jim
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Sun, 2012-01-29 at 22:38 +0000, Benjamin Dembroski
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>> Hi all,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Lately, there's been a bunch of emails regarding the
>>>>>>> reprap stuff.
>> It
>>>>>> sounds like things are progressing, and sounds like a very
>>>>>> interesting
>>>> and
>>>>>> worthwhile project.  However, The discussion is getting
>>>>>> increasingly specialised.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Given the number of emails, and that they are really
>>>>>>> only pertinent
>> to
>>>> a
>>>>>> subset of EC members, would it make sense to make a
>>>>>> separate mailing
>>>> list
>>>>>> to keep the noise down on the general EC list?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Just a thought, Ben D.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
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